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Newman



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Kansas City, Ks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: thank you Josh Wheeler! Reply with quote

slim
Novice
Posts: 128
(10/11/04 12:18 pm)
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a while back i read that he was trying 3-3-5 in the difs.
well i went thru my whole car and decided to try it. it made sence to me on how it would work. same principle as newmans torsen in the rear. (are you still running that newman?)

how did it work? man o man. the last 1/3 of a 180 hairpin you could punch it and drive right out of the corner with no significant push. even at the end of the night i still had more traction than i ever had before.

i think the secret is the light weight center, 5k in the rear allows both rears to have as much traction as possible since the weight will be transfered to the back. so since you have the 3k in the center it allows it to diff out to the front and that pulls the front on around the corner.

the car was a breeze to drive, i was told my car looked alot less nervous than all the other ones.

the rest of the setup goes as follows.

front
spider 3 k
35ish with purple springs inner holes on arms.
bones level.
no sway
22 degree c hubs
pretty much 0 and 0 for toe and camber.


center spidey with 3k

rear
30 in shocks inner hole on arm
no rear sway.
purple springs
3 toe in
2 camber
bottom hole in the pbs upright

and i used some jammin rippers and loved them.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3192
(10/12/04 10:30 am)
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Yup, still runnin the Torsen in the rear. I talked with Josh's dad a couple times and got some great insight from him. I agree that for some reason this odd setup seems to favor the Hyper 7. I had 3 people at the last Okla Pro Series race comment that my buggy was soooooo much more hooked up and drove so much smoother than the others. Granted I can break the rearend loose if I really try but for the most part I can hold a line much tighter in a corner and it just rockets out of a turn very controlled. The best time I've had with it was at that Pro Series race. 10 buggys on the starting gate and when the gate dropped I got about 45deg sideways off the ramp. I figured I had nothing to loose so I kept it pegged. The buggy went the full length of the straight crossed up and counter steering, but in the lead. At the end of the straight I let off a moment and the buggy instantly hooked up turned right and I pegged it again about 15ft in the lead. Sure wish I'd had a vidio of that. I'm not sure why and really haven't thought about it much since but I've drove this buggy sideways a few times since and as long as I stay on the gas it just keeps going where I point it.

raven7usa
Novice
Posts: 120
(10/12/04 1:08 pm)
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I'm in the process of converting a center torsen to use as as a rear torsen. I called Nitro House for the correct crown gear. They sent me #10627, but when I went to assemble it, there's a shoulder on the gear where the bearing goes that holds the bearing to far out. Also it covers to much of the shaft where the drive cup pin hole is. Did I get the wrong crown/bevel gear, or does the center torsen have different dimensions?

Onnar
Dabbler
Posts: 75
(10/12/04 3:14 pm)
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hi

newman, you run torsen in the back, what do you run in the front and center and what oil?

slim do you run 5k spider in rear or 5k standard diff?


thanks

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3200
(10/12/04 4:47 pm)
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raven, without looking I'ld have to say you got the wrong crown gear. The spur and crown gears should have the same face and only the only difference would be how the gear teeth are machined.

Onnar, I run a Torsen in the rear with a standard front and standard center with 3000wt in both. Josh has ran variations from 10,000 in the rear down to 3000 in the rear. The spider would be good with 5k in the rear. I will say that running a Torsen front and rear is not a good thing. I haven't tried a Spider in the front either but I imagine it would also not work well with the rear Torsen. The little I've thought about it, I think part of the reason the Torsen works in the rear is the center and front standard diffs "diff out" enough to let the rear end drive harder without the others dragging it down on power. I know that don't make sense but on the track my lap times are a LOT faster with this setup. You also need to run the 3 deg rear block with the Torsen to keep the front from pushing.

slim
Novice
Posts: 129
(10/12/04 7:04 pm)
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onnar,

it is a standard diff in the rear.

i know it is somewhat common theory that 3k in a spider is said to be like running a 5k standard. after redoin all diffs, 5k in the rear standard is alot stiffer than the 3k spider in the front. i willing to bet it is more like 3500 with the 2 extra gears.

swedespeed632
Neophyte
Posts: 36
(10/13/04 11:05 am)
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Wow, that 3,3,5 combo sounds quite interesting. I switched from 3,7,1 (running all Spyder's) to 5,7,1 and I am not quite sure if I really like it yet. It does seem to pull nicely into shape out of the 90-180 degree corners while hitting the throttle hard. Though large sweeper turns it seems to push more then I had expected. Though off the throttle turning seems to be great! Maybe I will give this a try 3,3,5.

Big Tyme Racing
Neophyte
Posts: 30
(10/14/04 8:49 am)
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So if I have a standard diff in the front, spider in the middle, and standard in the rear, I should go 5-3-5. I understand that there's about a 2000 weight difference between the spider and the standard diff. Or is that the right ratio?

slim
Novice
Posts: 130
(10/14/04 10:36 am)
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well like i said i have 3 in the front spider and 5 in a standard in the rear. the 3 in the spider is ALOT less stiff than the 5 in the rear.

id say if you want to try my setup, put 3 in the front and and a dash of 5 for flavor.

clif note: 3k spider does not feel like a 5k standard. not even close.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3210
(10/14/04 11:39 am)
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slim, are you going by the way the diff's feel when you turn it by hand or by the way the buggy "feels" when driving it? What most of us mean by 'feel' is the way the buggy responds rather than how the outdrives feel in hand. The Spyder is somewhat like the Torsen in that respect. When you turn a Torsen it feels very free but when it's under power it reacts way differently. The Spyder diff is sort of like that too. It will feel free when you turn the outdrives but when it's under power at speed the extra gears cause an increased rotating resistance in the diff so lighter oil makes the diff react like a standard diff with heavier oil. The advantage to this is the under power the Spyder has greater on power traction but when off power the diff free wheels easier where a standard diff has equal resistance both on power and off power.

slim
Novice
Posts: 131
(10/14/04 2:20 pm)
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ahhh i see, well i was going by suspending the buggy off the table and feeling the resistance by spinning the wheels. i didnt think the spider would act that way, i just assumed it was maybe stronger and posibly smoother with the 2 extra gears. thanx for the info!

Onnar
Dabbler
Posts: 76
(10/14/04 3:58 pm)
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the way i test how the diff are working i put the car on starter box. have the car running and put my finger on the tire. see how much force it take to stop the tire

i try torsen in bak of car. i see how it go and let u people now how i go

swedespeed632
Neophyte
Posts: 38
(10/14/04 5:18 pm)
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Newman...that thread you wrote on the Spyder dif is quite interesting. It really makes me rethink me running Spyders all the way around. Thanks for that break down!

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3216
(10/14/04 6:51 pm)
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I found an interesting way of testing my diff action while tuning my buggy one day. I was tuning the lowend with the buggy balanced on edge against my shoe with the left front and rear wheels off the ground. I normally blip the throttle when doing this and usually always ran the standard diffs. While doing this once after putting the Torsen in the rear I blipped the throttle and the buggy took off quicly for a short distance. ????? hmmmmm. So I've used that technic to as a semi bench test for different diff setups. To a certain degree you can get a feel for how your diffs are acting by doing this on dirt and gauge the various diff actions of diffs and oils. Sort of a hack way to do it but it works in a fashon and it's fun besides.

Kingrsl
Novice
Posts: 107
(11/14/04 5:13 pm)
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I must admit I was a bit skeptical of this setup after reading so many of the "typical" diff oil setups out there. After going through a couple different setups I tried it out myself at this weekend's race and WOW! It definately drives like its on rails now.

James Dibble
Apprentice
Posts: 20
(11/16/04 11:29 am)
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daddy newman

when do you run this set up?
3 stock diff front
3 stock diff center
and 5 spider or Torsen

on what type of track.
small track?

we have a small track in Tx indoor that is

indyrcworld.net/picpost/index.php

what set up would you run for this track.

thanx JD

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3466
(11/17/04 4:50 am)
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I've been running that 3000/3000/torsen setup for several months now on several different tracks in different states so the surfaces are all different. To give you a general idea of my home track, here are a few pix from a few months back but this is typical. (just a note of interest, if you look closely at the red truck in the last photo, look real close at the left edge of the photo. You can just see the blue sleeve of a guy about 6'2". That gives you some idea of the air we get off a couple jumps.

I would imagine that this setup would be even quicker on a smooth track like your's. It's really very stable and quick out of corners.

James Dibble
Apprentice
Posts: 21
(11/17/04 7:50 am)
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thanx i will let you know how it goes after this weekend.

maybe i just need to fly you in to drive for me. lol



James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 22
(11/28/04 7:36 am)
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Well guys I ran the 335spider. Josh Wheeler set up. Not sure if I like it or not. Lol
Here is the run down from Sat. practice day.

I ran from 2 p.m. 6 p.m.
Motor I was running was Novarossi 3 port, 14 bell, stock spur 46/ 2050 pipe, temp was 230-240. I also let other people drive to get their views on it as well.

My view point:
It seems to have crazy off power steering but a little push on power. I believe the on power push is because the front and center are diff-ing out under power. This makes the front and center diff out more than a 572 set up. I said two times. lol
For me it seems to center up faster for jumps coming out of the turns which I like a lot. Putting the power to the ground was good. Once I was lined up I would punch it and it would move like rapped ape. Tracking straight as anything. But if you got on the power to early coming out of a turn then the rear would come out from under you ASAP!!!
But if you did not get on it to early the buggy seem to have a lot of traction some what all the time. More time will tell if I like more.

I had 2 guys drive my buggy and I drove 2 mugens.


Other views of the 335spider.
1st guy drives a stock Mugen X5. So he is use to having a super light buggy.
His view of my hyper was a little heavy for his liking. But it went through the rough stuff so much easier than his mugen. Jumped good, was way more stable/ panted than his. His rear seems to come around a lot faster but he drives with his brakes. Drives hard into the turn hit the brakes turn then power outs.
Mines brake then turn then power out.
H7 did not have the turning like his mugen. But he said he kind of like it. But need more steering for him. But he did say that H7 was set up so a person that never drove a 1.8 could just pick this buggy up and drive it very well. So that is good. I guess????

Me driving his mugen.
I seem to get up to top speed much faster. B.c. of it being light. I had to get use to the steering and his Hard Braking that he had. Drive hard in the turn then brake then turn and power out. It seems you have to drive a mugen super hard to make it work. JUST ME!!
It seems to jump well but did not go through the rough stuff good at all. The rear came a round on me a lot till I could not be sure of my self that I was tracking right.

I did like the steering but it seem stable at times and some times it did not. Not sure if driving hard is for me???


Other Mugen x5: buggy I drove was a little heavier. His steering was slowed down a lot for my liking but I was able to drive his very easy. Steering was the same what the same. But the rear end was panted. It jumped well. Went through the rough a lot better than the lighter mugen but not as good as the heavier H7.

With the heavier mugen I was able to drive it a little harder than the light one. And I was sure of myself that I was tracking right and straight for next jump or anything that was a head of me.

It seems if I had the lighter buggy steering and the heavier rear tractions I could come to say I would like a mugen.

Guy 2:
K3 drove my buggy said it had more steering than his buggy and went through the rough stuff much better than his did. Jumped good tracked well. But some what the same other than that.

For me I had all the K cars so here is my view.

I feel the kyosho I had steering very good steering. The H7 has good steering but not as good as my kyosho K3 did. But I did go faster with the H7 than I did with my K3. They both seem to handle the well so I donít know really way I was faster with the H7.
But times donít lie that is for sure.

Maybe u guys can shed some light on this.

Well I really would like to try a mugen set up my way to really to see if this is for me. Reason I say this is b.c. I need to see if driving on the edge (meaning un-stable) is my style of driving or driving a little on the safe (meaning more stable) is for me.
If I find a good deal on one I may give it a try.

If anyone has any views on this please post.
Thanx dibs




newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3530
(11/28/04 8:06 am)
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I think that if you give the H7 a little more time and gear down to a 13t bell with a more aggressive clutch, practice some more and work up to really pushing it hard you will reach a point where the buggy will seem to amost always look right on the edge of being totally out of control. But it will be almost driving it's self and be easy to drive out of virtually anything. I still recall and comment on leaving a starting gate one time at full throttle. The buggy hit the end of the ramp and went about 45deg sideways with all 4 wheels spinning. I was first out with 9 others right on my butt so I just counter steered and kept it pinned. The buggy went the entire 160 some feet of front straight like that. At the end of the straight the first turn was a hard 90 right and I was pointed left, I let off for a moment, buggy snapped around fast, I pinned it again full on and was into the second corner before the last half of the field made the end of the straight. The entire time the buggy just felt fully under control yet looked fully out of control.
You are also very right on, this setup on the H7 is so much more planted and stable over ruff/rutted sections and you can usually run through chunked out spots nearly full throttle with little effort whild M5's and K3's tend to have to fight for control at high speeds.
I've not mentioned before but personally I like the torsen in the rear because I tend to get my buggy up on 2 wheels at times. The torsen will continue to put power to the rear wheel that's still on the ground without diffing out. It let's me keep the throttle on and the buggy still going forward till it settles again.

James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 23
(11/28/04 10:06 am)
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so Newman
i will try a 13 bell then and maybe other motor with more top end.

right now i have the v-spec new
vzb new
OS v01b new

i may give the v-spec a run it has crazy more top and a lot of bottom.

and do like you said drive it harder.

here is my set up

you have motor and all

front shock
upper mid hole
center hole on the 777 new hubs
2.4 sway bar all the out no meat left out.
caster 22
camber 1
steering slider B
shocks
60 front
1.4 piston
blue kyosho springs
kyosho shocks
a little under dog bone.
the front will lift once on gas to bone level.
shock lenght
98 or 100 i believe


Center
3 k
46



rear
shock tower
lower out side hole

lower shock hole mid hole

2.8 sway bar
no meat
wing postition
C
3 deg. rear plated
rear hub
out side top hole
hub all the way forward

camber 2

45 rear
1.4 piston
blue kyosho springs
kyosho shocks
lenght 116
over bone level
once on gas plus the wing in positon C
will make the rear go back to bone level once on gas.

let me knew Newman

dibs
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Newman



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Kansas City, Ks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:49 am    Post subject: thank you Josh Wheeler! page 2 Reply with quote

James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 24
(11/28/04 6:36 pm)
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well here is something i looked up today.

777 --7.7lb


S3--7.4lb


Mugen--7.5lb


hyper--7.7lb


xray--7.4lb

these are all stock buggys weight.

i did not know the kyosho and hyper are that heavy.

will the new one be aroud 7.4 or so?



newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3537
(11/28/04 6:43 pm)
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Sounds pretty much near ideal, just try the V-spec out first and you should be real happy with it.

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 440
(11/28/04 7:20 pm)
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Hi, I tried this setup this weekend as well, and with my driving style, seemed to work out rather well. I like to drive hard into the corner, then turn, and drive hard out, and my car seemed to do that really well. Following is my setup:

Front:
Kyosho K3 Shocks 60W
Blue Springs
Shock Mount: Middle on top, outside on bottom
No Sway Bar
3K Standard Diff
Steering in the front hole
22* Kyosho 777 Carriers (Single center Hole)
1* Toe Out
1* Camber
Ride Hieght: Bones Level

Center:
3K spider Diff
40% F/60% R Brake Bias
13T Clutch Bell
Top P5 (Nova Race Head, 210*)

Rear:
5K Spider Diff
No Sway Bar
Stock Shocks 40W
Blue Springs
Shock Mount: 2nd from Inside on top, Inside on Bottom
1.5* Camber
3* Toe In
Ride Hieght: Arms Level

Handled very well for the way I drive, But as Dibble said, it is a bit sensitive as to when you get on the throttle coming out of the corner, as you can easily spin it. I thought about actually going to a 14T to help calm it down a bit getting on the throttle, but it may be just that I need to run it a bit more first to get used to it.
The only toher problem I found with this setup, is that it creates a new weak point. Since the front upper camber links are so much longer, there were not to many threads left in the arm or plastic end piece, and I ended up pulling it out in the main. I switched out the plastic tips for the rear ones as the rear ones are about 3/8in longer. This looks like it may do the trick, will see this weekend. But still will probably put more stress on the Fron upper arm.

BTW, Dibble, where were you running, I was out at Indy Sat.

Edited by: jsmax at: 11/28/04 7:21 pm

slim
Novice
Posts: 153
(11/28/04 8:13 pm)
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leave it just the way it is jsmax, but add the rear sway, i found that after the track lost grip the rear out of the corner would diff out side to side and would loose control and spin.
it would come out of the corner so hard, that all the weight would shift rearwad to the outside wheel, allowing the inside to diff out, then the car would level out and power would make the other rear diff out then it would spin. i put the sway back on in the rear and bam prob solved.

i tried 17 deg fronts, didnt care to much for it and settled on 20 in the front.

James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 25
(11/28/04 8:23 pm)
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jsmax
I Ran this at Action rc in OKC.

i guess i need to drive it harder.

i guess i see you at inday on the 12th



kyoshokev
Expert
Posts: 431
(11/29/04 4:05 am)
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i read this post and i did some experimenting

FF/C/RR

a) 3k std/5k std/torsen - couldnt keep the car straight coming out of corner. drove so bad i had to take it off after 1 tank.

b) Torsen/Torsen/1k - the car would run wide had minimal turn-in at the entry of the corner.

c) Torsen/5k/1k - drives the best and the rear follows where u point the car.

d) 3k/5k/1k - drives a bit like the above setup, but doesnt hook up aswell.

of course depends on your track surface and your other settings, and your driving style.

cheers

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3541
(11/29/04 8:41 am)
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jsmax, I pulled the stock links out a number of times before I finally went to the hardware store and bought a half dozen 5mm hex head bolts that were threaded full lenght. They were about 55 or 60mm long and equal to SAE grade 8. I just cut them off where they nearly bottom at both ends. No more bending or breaking camber links and no more stripped threads.

kyoshokev, agreed most of it depends on your driving style and the track layout but as mentioned earlier, if you are going to try a majorly different setup then you have to give it a chance. Not even top level pro's can make a major change and adjust to it in 1 tank or less of testing. It just don't work that way. The 3/3/T setup tends to work rather well once you get used to it but it's not going to come to you instantly.
It's not Cambell's instant 'Cup-a-Soup'. You gotta cook with it a while.

schmt452
Dabbler
Posts: 63
(11/29/04 10:26 am)
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I have been following this post for awhile now this is very interesting stuff. My question is for the answer man, Newman, I did not really want to invest in a torsen diff only to find out it does not fit my driving. What would you recommend for oil weights, I have 2 regular and a center spider? Right now I have 5f 5c 3r this is what was Noob told me to try, I have not run this yet, But this is where I plan to start once the snow melts. I am looking for some different things to try. I know the sky is the limit.

Next what is with all the Kyosho parts on the Hypers?

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 444
(11/29/04 10:55 am)
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How would the Torsen in the rear react differently than a 5K spider? Would it still come on power just as good, but maybe help limit the spinouts, or at least make it not as sensitive getting on the gas coming out of a 180* turn?

RCED
Apprentice
Posts: 15
(11/29/04 7:53 pm)
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Yhe 3-3t-5 setup worked for me right away. It helped keep my rear end from swinging out on turns. Must fit my driving style. I have only tried it on two tracks.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3543
(11/29/04 8:16 pm)
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schmt452, rather than try the torsen then, maybe try the spyder diff in the rear, (but you'll need the spyder crown gear) with 5-7k oil in it. Run the front and center with standard diffs using 3k oil in them. This will give you somewhat of a similar feel as the torsen.

jsmax go back to page 1 of this thread, about halfway down I posted the way each diff reacts to "slim". Should explain most of it.

Kingrsl
Novice
Posts: 117
(11/30/04 4:26 pm)
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Newman,
I re-read all the posts on this thread. I dont really understand how torsens work differently. Can you explain why you dont think a spider/spider/torsen setup would work well? I run 3k(spider)/3k(spider)/5k(standard) in mine and it drives great as long as there is decent traction but pushes hard as the track gets slick. Would re-arranging my diffs help?

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 449
(11/30/04 6:41 pm)
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If it helps, I switched mine around and I run 3K Standard/3K Spider/5K Spider. I don't really have a traction problem unless I get on it to hard to quick coming out of a corner. Also, It does not really push. I would guess the problem is that when the 3K spider in the front spins up, it is acting like 5K-6K, so you are really not getting the effect of this setup. Try switching them and see how it goes.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3552
(11/30/04 8:59 pm)
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Kingrsl okay here again, the Spyder diff has 2 more gears than the standard diff. The addition of the added teeth make the Spyder diff work much like the standard diff at low speeds but as rotational speeds increase the Spyder diff begins working more like a 'locker' or "Limited Slip" diff. Sorta like posi-track at high rpm. But it free's up as it spins down which allows it to diff out easily off power. The standard diff is the same as it spins up and down, in an over all consistant feel all the time. The Torsen "senses" when one side of the diff looses resistance/traction and it transfers power to the opposite side quickly. When a Torsen is off power the Torsen freewheels completely like a diff with no oil at all.

Due to the way the Spyder's work vs the standard's the Spyders work against the rear Torsen. The standard's seem to work with the Torsen in the rear. But you also need to run the standards really light for it to all work together which is the real key here. It's not just about a Spyder in the center or a Torsen in the rear etc. It's about the over all package.

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 451
(12/1/04 6:19 pm)
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So, from reading that, I should probably take the spider diff out of the center and put a standard diff in with 3K. I have a torsen now for the rear, so I will swao it out and try it, then swap out the center for a standard diff and try it.


newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3562
(12/1/04 8:58 pm)
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Yup, I'ld try changing one at a time and do some serious testing. But keep in mind that changing these things may also requre that you make some minor changes in the suspension setup as well. Everything tends to affect other things so don't just try one change and give up on it before making some adjustments including driving style. As someone said earlier, the buggy may feel slower or odd to you but may actually be faster on the track. Watch actual lap times to verifiy if you're going forward or backward.

Donnie Hayden
Neophyte
Posts: 217
(12/6/04 1:13 am)
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Re: thank you josh wheeler!
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Ok, I'm running standard/spyder/standard diffs. As of now I have them filled 5-7-1. This is the first time I have dealt with a spyder diff so im not sure if running my current set up is good. I have always ran 5-7-1 and it has worked well for me, But for some reason it's not working out on this hyper. I am running stock hyper shocks with 60wt and kyosho med blue springs, stock sway bar up front. Kyosho shocks with med blue springs 40wt oil, stock sway bar rear. PCR towers, 358 steering servo. I am having to do alot of braking to get the car to make turns. It seems to push more when I come into a turn. I am not a expert racer nor do I know alot about set up. Should I try the 3-3-5 set up?


raven7usa
Novice
Posts: 129
(12/6/04 6:35 am)
| Del Re: thank you josh wheeler!
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Donnie, I suggest first of all to remove the front sway bar and try it. I'm running 3k, 3k(spider), 5k with no front sway bar. Slim and I run the same track and this setup works great on our Hyper 7's. This setup makes the buggy so stable and predictable that it you can easily overdrive the car. The 5-7-1 setup was OK, but the 3-3-5 is better.

James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 28
(12/6/04 7:52 am)
| Del Re: thank you josh wheeler!
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so no front sway bar hmm

Newman what is your take on this?



slim
Novice
Posts: 157
(12/6/04 8:11 am)
| Del .
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all of the hypers at out track use no front sway. i have tried it several times, and always end up taking it off. 2 reasons mainly, i cant turn it as tight with it, and it makes the car feel not as forgiving or stable in like the wh00ps or a off camber landing. the only cars that seem to run the front sway are the mayhems but most of those guys are trying to take away steering. we also have a xb8 that runs no front sway, he came from a K2 and he also ran no front on that either. spend a day trying it, just take off the links real quick and leave the bar, so you can A&B it.
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Newman



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Kansas City, Ks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Dibble
Neophyte
Posts: 29
(12/6/04 9:01 am)
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i will take it off just like you said as soon as i hit the track friday. and i will let you guys know how it works out.

let me get this right by putting the shocks out all the way on the rear. makes the buggy more panted and less roll right?

so on a smooth track i would run the shocks all the way out? and on a rough track i will run it in. like stock?

thanx all

slim
Novice
Posts: 159
(12/6/04 9:37 am)
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yes, outter hole on arm will help with roll, but it slightly reduces the dampning of the oil. has to do with leverage...

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3573
(12/6/04 12:55 pm)
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No sway bars? It's a personal preferance. Usually swaybars are used where there's a lot of traction and you need to soften sidebite. If you notice the inside rear wheel lifting when entering a hard turn then you run a front swaybar. If the front inside lifts when exiting a corner hard then you run a rear swaybar. Removing swaybars are usually a bandaid for a tweaked setup. By letting the inside wheels lift you scrub off a whole lot of forward momentum due to the diffs unloading. I'm oldschool and have always subscribed to the theory that anytime you have a wheel spinning you are losing forward accelleration. Yeah you seem to get more steering but it's more an illusion. If your inside rear lifts the rear diff diffs' out and the car rotates around the frontend. But you lose momentum. But again it's personal preferance over geometery. Whatever works.

Shocks more upright. More rough surface dampening and less weight transfer front/rear under hard accelleration and braking. Less sidebit and faster chassis roll in hard turns.
Shocks more laid over. Less rough surface dampening and faster weight transfer front to rear. More side bite with slower chassis roll under hard cornering.

Donnie Hayden
Neophyte
Posts: 219
(12/6/04 1:28 pm)
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Re: .
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Ummm, So I should do 3-3-5..standard diff-spyder diff-standard diff and remove the front sway bar?



raven7usa
Novice
Posts: 130
(12/7/04 5:01 am)
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Donnie, Since you already have the reg,spider,reg diffs, give it a try with 3k-3k-5k. It works on our indoor track which is sugar clay with tight turns and no big sweepers. We don't get the wheel lift like Newman mentioned, so we run without the front sway bar. It allows us to turn tighter with less push when the track gets hard packed and slippery. If your track has exceptional traction, then you may need the front sway bar. Slim and I have tried it on high traction tracks where the car turns to quick and the back end swings around. We put the front sway bar back on and all was good. But later in the day when the track dries out and becomes hard and dusty, and the buggy starts to push, the front sway bar gets disconnected. So, depending on your track conditions, watch for wheel lift/excessive body roll like Newman described. If your track has a lot of bumpy sections, no front sway bar lets the front suspension work independently allowing the front wheels to stay in contact with the ground. Give the 3-3-5 a try and report back to us. Since switching to the 3-3-5 in the diffs, I've increased my lap count at least 2 laps in a 15 min. race, mainly due to the car not getting squirrly.

Edited by: raven7usa at: 12/7/04 10:01 am

Donnie Hayden
Neophyte
Posts: 222
(12/7/04 3:11 pm)
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Well, I now have 3-3-5 in the diffs and I removed the front sway bar. See how it goes soon as I get it on the track again.


mknauss95
Neophyte
Posts: 27
(12/19/04 10:14 pm)
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This set-up sounds like it could be the new standard as opposed to the 5-7-1. Was just curious if this new set-up would be just as effective in a 9.5.

Edited by: mknauss95 at: 12/21/04 1:01 am

Scarab RC
Disciple
Posts: 241
(12/20/04 10:49 am)
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I'm going to be running on a 100% clay indoor track. What tires will hook up on that? I'm thinking Knuckles because of the increased surface area touching the track for the high traction. What do you think?

Scarab

OperationIvy138
Guru
Posts: 1435
(12/20/04 3:55 pm)
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when the thread is more spread out and softer.. you will get more grip...depends on track tho..

Edited by: OperationIvy138 at: 12/20/04 4:19 pm

Onnar
Disciple
Posts: 207
(12/20/04 4:35 pm)
| Del Re: .
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SEE MEIDAL PRO TIRE GUIDE.

slim
Disciple
Posts: 169
(12/21/04 12:04 pm)
| Del Re: .
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if you want the best hooked up tire get panther switch c compund, only get the c compound, it may take a bit to find it, as its only been out for like 2 weeks. i ran a all clay track last week, and man you werent fast unless you had the c compound. its softer than soft and by the end of the day there was rubber layed down on all the "gas" areas.

Onnar
Disciple
Posts: 218
(12/22/04 1:27 am)
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HI I TRYED 3-5-T AND IT NOT WORK

I TRIED T-5-1 AND I LIKE IT ALOT.

AND NOW I TRIED T-T-3 AND THIS IS THE BEST SETUP I HAVE USED SO FAR.

LOTS OF ENTRY STEERING AND REAR IS STABLE. IT HAS MODERATE TO FAST EXIT SPEEDS. IT CAN SPIN OUT IF EXIT CORNER TOO FAST.

I USE THIS SETUP , ON A SMOOTH TRACK WITH LOOSE FINE DIRT.

RCED
Apprentice
Posts: 18
(12/22/04 8:08 pm)
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Scarab, check to see what the hot setup is at that track. There is different types of clay. Ours starts out with a lot of traction early in the day. The popular tire is crimefighters. As the day goes on, the track gets hard with low bite. Then panthers are better. At the track Slim is talking about, they grind the tread off the tires because of the high bite. Each track can be different. Your knuckles should be a good tire.

Minnesota
Apprentice
Posts: 1
(12/27/04 7:30 pm)
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I just picked up a used h7 and if i want to try this setup with all standard diffs what should I use for oil weight. Or is it not possible to get it that close without using a torsen in the rear?

Thanks
Tim

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 477
(12/27/04 8:02 pm)
| Del Re: .
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I would try it, just start with 3/3/5, then maybe try 7 in the rear if needed.

Donnie Hayden
Neophyte
Posts: 249
(12/27/04 10:09 pm)
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Well, The 3-3-5 is great! It's like driving a whole new car now. Enters and exits turns fine. Just so for those that havent read the whole thread, Im running 3(standard diff) 3(spider diff) 5(standard diff) I think I actually like the spider diff now.


DaleJrFan8
Neophyte
Posts: 31
(1/11/05 9:17 pm)
| Del Donnie
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I changed my set-up also.....it is just like driving a whole new buggy. I was wondering what type of track you drive on most of the time, hard packed or lot of traction? In what way did you have to adjust your driving style if any? Stock engine or a modified? I drove mine for a tank and started to get the hang of it.....but the back end liked to come around when i really stomped on it? 3-3-5, std, spidr, std, 50 frt shocks, 40 rr shocks, both sway bars, bones level on frt and rr, 13 tooth bell, crimefighters all around. Could you give me some insight on this???

hyperprouk
Novice
Posts: 84
(1/12/05 1:54 am)
| Del Re: Donnie
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not really paid much attention to this thread but after having looked through, i find it very intresting, is there anyone like me who runs on a tough track with big jumps and woops with huge banked corners track of 75% clay and 25% topsoil and uses spiders all the way through? have you ever tried all three newman? and what was you opinion?

jsmax
Expert
Posts: 501
(1/12/05 5:08 am)
| Del Re: Donnie
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Donnie, I was running 3K std/3K spider/5K spider, I finally tried switching the center out to 3K std, and it works even better. The car handles really good and can drive out of almost anything.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3711
(1/12/05 7:08 am)
| Del Re: Donnie
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DaleJrFan8 give it a bit more time and you will get used to it. I've found that most of the time when the rear tries to come around if I clamp the throttle and counter steer it will ususally straighten back up 'eventually'. A number of times I've driven my buggy sideways for 70-80 ft but still under reasonable control. The 3/3/5 or 3/3/7 or even the 3/3/T setup seems to like being driven really hard. At first I drove it semi conservitively and it was uncomfortable. But when I started really throwing it around the track it just got faster and faster. It takes a bit of getting used to but try really driving it hard into and out of corners and see how it feels as you get the feel of it.

hyperprouk. I tried the Spyder in the front and center and really didn't like them on the type of tracks I usually run on. Mostly I race on loose topsoil that chunks out as the day wears on and it's mostly loose in the corners and I sometimes run on red clay with a lot of fine sand. The Spyders tend to be more reactive than the standard diffs. What I mean by that is the Spyder diff has a much different action when on power than off power. The standard diff has pretty much the same action on or off power. It's sort of hard to explain but I think it's sort of like a one way diff in a touring car. It has a ton of bite on power but it coast's free off power.
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Newman



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Kansas City, Ks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scarab RC
Disciple
Posts: 247
(1/12/05 7:20 am)
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Re: Donnie
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I ran the 3std/3spider/5std this past weekend. I also was not running any swaybars. If traction is high, it works great. After the track started drying out however, it became difficult to control the rear end. Even with throttle control, the rear end just wanted to come around on me. Am I doing something wrong?

Scarab

CajunHyper7PCR
Neophyte
Posts: 40
(1/12/05 8:52 am)
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Re: thank you josh wheeler!
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Do you have pictures of standard diff, Torsen diff, and Spider Diff?

DaleJrFan8
Neophyte
Posts: 32
(1/12/05 12:19 pm)
| Del Thanks Newman for the info
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I'll give it some time so I can adjust to it. But overall with the way it takes off and handles is just awesome. Mine seems like it doesn't lift the front end much....it just goes forward.....so I'll see what happens this weekend.

Thanks

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3715
(1/12/05 7:17 pm)
| Del Re: Thanks Newman for the info
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Scarab if you have or can get the different spur and crown gears try moving the Spyder to the rear leaving the 3k in it and move the standard to the center with 3k in it also. Also (takes a little practice) but try changing your driving style a little. When the rear acts like it's trying to come around counter steer and pin the throttle. Much depends on your tire choice and track surface but I've come to find that my buggy actually recovers from being loose in the rear if I give it WOT and drive it back straight. I used to lift throttle when it got sideways which seemed to just make it worse. As I say, it takes a bit of practice and a lot of faith in the buggy but it can gather it's self up if you pin it most times with this similar setup.

Scarab RC
Disciple
Posts: 247
(1/13/05 7:52 am)
| Del
Re: Thanks Newman for the info
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Newman, thanks for the advice.

I still have my std center diff so that's not a problem. Does the stock crown gear fit the spider diff or do I need another part number?

Scarab

slim
Disciple
Posts: 188
(1/13/05 4:12 pm)
| Del .
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unfortunatly, the diffs are not interchangeable from spider-stock-torsen (parts wise) all use diff bolt patterns.

Scarab RC
Disciple
Posts: 247
(1/13/05 4:28 pm)
| Del
Re: .
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oh, that's right. The spider has 6 bolts and the stocks have 4. Dumb question, sorry...

Scarab

dmckie
Master
Posts: 649
(1/13/05 6:23 pm)
| Del
ezSupporter

Re: .
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Quote:
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I've come to find that my buggy actually recovers from being loose in the rear if I give it WOT and drive it back straight. I used to lift throttle when it got sideways which seemed to just make it worse.
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I'll need to try that newman. My first reaction when the buggy's rear wants to go out , is to let of the throttle. Never thought of pegging it. I was wondering why i was having such a hard time recovering from the rear coming around. It just didn't seam natural doing something like that.

thanks for the info. I'll give it a try next time.

slim
Disciple
Posts: 190
(1/13/05 8:38 pm)
| Del .
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i tried 3-3-3 all spiders in pratice the other day, i liked it, track wasnt waterd for 2 months now so it was slippery, but it was very comtrolable in a drift, i could peg it like newman is talking about and it was stable and drivable in the on power drift.

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3726
(1/14/05 3 pm)
| Del Re: .
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Yeah, it's real strange to drive it like that. I too had to adjust to a different way of driving it. My first reflex was to lift when it got loose and sure as the world as soon as I'ld let up the rear would snap right around. After a few times I just clamped the trigger. Again, it does take a little practice to get used to and it won't always straigthen back up but the majority of the time it will. There are some limits.

Big Tyme Racing
Neophyte
Posts: 41
(1/18/05 4:47 pm)
| Del Wheelers are gone
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Bummer the Wheelers went to x-ray. Who's up next for the Ofna pro spot? I suck, but I will race for parts. lol.

vbgagnon
Apprentice
Posts: 2
(1/28/05 9:46 am)
| Del ...
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I know the wheelers are gone, but maybe you guys can help. I'll be running 3 standard diffs and was wondering what diff oils are recommended? I want to try the 3,3,5 but with out the spider and torsion diff I don't know if it will still work well.

jsmax
Master
Posts: 522
(1/28/05 11:41 am)
| Del Re: ...
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Yes, I would run it. I have also heard of people running 7K in the rear with the standard diff with this setup. So try 5K, and if it is just not what you want, or does not seem to drive hard enough, try 7K.

CajunHyper7PCR
Dabbler
Posts: 45
(1/28/05 3:21 pm)
| Del
Re: ...
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Does Hyper 7 PCR's diff are all spider? Let me know. I don't understand about standard, torsen, and spider are different. Can you explain to me about them? Thanks.

vbgagnon
Apprentice
Posts: 3
(1/29/05 2:58 pm)
| Del diffs
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the pcr diffs are standard, spider, standard.

CajunHyper7PCR
Dabbler
Posts: 46
(1/29/05 8:46 pm)
| Del
Re: diffs
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Cool!! Thanks

newman
OFNA Moderator
Posts: 3817
(1/30/05 3:08 pm)
| Del Re: diffs
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To try and make it easy.

The Standard diff case is rounded off on the opposite end from the gear and it has 4 screws through the gear in a square bolt pattern

The Torsen diff case is squared off on the opposite end from the gear and it has an orange O-ring that's visible near that end. It has 4 bolt through it that are in a rectangle bolt pattern.

The Spyder diff has a bright shinny case and has "Spyder" stamped on the outside of the case. pretty simple on that one. It has 6 bolts through the case.

CajunHyper7PCR
Dabbler
Posts: 47
(1/30/05 4:02 pm)
| Del
Re: diffs
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Thanks, Newman!!!!

slim
Disciple
Posts: 194
(2/1/05 9:08 am)
| Del .
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i switched things up a bit. im now 3-7-3 spyder-standard-spyder.

i have ran this on 2 diff tracks, one high bite clay, and the other is a clay but more like out door loose.

still the car is stable, you have to watch it in the corners when its loose dirt. i may think its stable cuz my counter steering has waaaay improved. there is a corner thats slippery and it looks more like a rally car on speed vision lol. we were finding on the 335 that the front tires are getting a bit worn prematurely.

like the wheelers, i too am jumping ship and going to xray, will have it this week. mine will be posted in for sale in a day or so as a roller. thanx to newman and everyone else who has helped me alog the way.

Big Tyme Racing
Dabbler
Posts: 49
(2/1/05 3 pm)
| Del 5-3-5
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I just ran 5-3-5 with standard diffs front and rear with a spider in the center. Hard pack dirt, loose in the corners. The back end went out when I got on it a little too hard, but overall, I noticed a great improvement in the steering right off the bat. I think it's all in the rear diff on this platform. I like my hyper even more now.
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Newman



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Kansas City, Ks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does take a little finese on the ol throttle control when you change diff oil weights. My driving style is kinda like newmans, When the car tries to get a little squirrley I just pin it and point the wheels straight...Works for me. Also, make sure your brake bias is set pretty good. I run about 40% front brakes and 60% rear. I usually enter the corner pretty fast, tap the brakes just enough to get the rear to swing around and nail it again.


vbgagnon
Apprentice
Posts: 4
(2/7/05 10:55 am)
| Del ..
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Does anybody have a vid of their hyper with 335 diff oils? I'd like to see one in action before I take the time to redo all my diffs. Thanks

VB

Donnie Hayden
Neophyte
Posts: 274
(2/7/05 11:48 am)
| Del
Re: ..
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LoL, Why rely on a video....How many people on here have said how well the 3-3-5 set up works? I would take everyones word before seeing a video.


jsmax
Master
Posts: 524
(2/8/05 9:19 am)
| Del Re: ..
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My Hyper was hooked, and I could drop it on any of my local tracks without changing setup and it was hooked.

Front:
Kyosho K3 Shocks 50W
Blue Springs
Shock Mount: Middle on top, outside on bottom
Sway bar: Small Black one
3K Standard Diff
Steering in the back hole
20* Kyosho 777 Carriers (Single center Hole)
2* Toe Out
2* Camber
Ride Hieght: Between Arms & Bones Level

Center:
3K standard Diff
40%F / 60%R Brake Bias
13T Clutch Bell
Top P5 (Nova Race Head, 210*)

Rear:
5K Spider Diff
Sway Bar: Next one thicker from stock black
Stock Shocks 35W
Blue Springs
Shock Mount: 2nd from Inside on top, Inside on Bottom
1.5* Camber
3* Toe In
Ride Hieght: Bones Level

Car was awesome on any of my local tracks without change.
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