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Hyper 9 Setup discussion.
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Casketman



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 495
Location: Braidwood,IL,USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone has their own way of driving.
I have found I am backwards when I look to others for setup help. Most still run something like 5/7/3 but that never felt good to me. My current is 7/4/2 and that feels way better then the other way.

If it works for you,then go for it even if its no where near the norm setup wise.

As for running in the rough areas. Sometimes there is just that right line where if you hit it and hit the gas just right. You can fly over everything. I am speaking more about the whoops areas. Kinda like how the motorcross guys do it. Spring setup along with learning and knowing the track are the two main keys.

Maybe the powers that be can sticky this thread to make sure it doesnt fall? I doubt it will but still.
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think of it, at least two of my team drivers have changed to the truggy servo saver spring, and it works fine. I just forgot to do it myself...

Regarding the diff setup, I think I'll try Mr Casketman's setup. Sounds like a setup I would like

Now to the shocks...

I liked the feel of the standard dampers (havent tried the 17/20mm super big bore ones). They felt smoother than the ones from the 8/8,5.
I have tried them with 200 CPS and 250 CPS oil on a rough track. I suspect I should have gone up on the oil, but I havent had time to test that yet.

Sometihing that lurks in the back of my mind constantly is something Joseph Quagraine told me when he was driving the 8,5.
He said it was alsmost no point in trying the standard damper pistons, becasue they needed drilling out (he mentioned as a sidenote that they might be usable on the truggy).
I didn't get an explanation as to why, just "it works better".
It's great fun talking to JQ, he always gives you a straight answer without sugarcoating anything. He could easily be mistaken for arrogant, but hes not, he's just Finnish
I asked him at the last Euros about what he thought about the Xray compared to the H9. "it drives better" he said. Great guy

So... Would it be easier to set up a damper with bigger holes and heavier oils? (I have used the JQ damper setup on the H8, and it works VERY good)
Hmmm... Let me rephrase: Why do I feel it's easier to setup a damper with larger holes and heavier oils than what is most commonly used in standard dampers, and in what way is it different than just adding a hole or two in the piston (and using heavier oils)? I have tried understanding damper setup for years, but I never think I understand them fully. Pi#§% me off...
Would anyone care to educate me on the differences?

PS. I'm sorry if i get too fixed on technical details, but it's one of the things I love the most with these cars, and I get really annoyed when it doesn't make sense to me

Good night/morning/day/afternoon depending on where you are :)
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YZFAndy



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dampers are there to control piston speed and to stop the car bouncing around on just its springs as you know but there are three things going on. Compression, rebound and packing.

Compression is the resistance at speed that the piston can be pushed in.
Rebound is the speed the piston is allowed to be sprung back out.
Pack is when the piston is moving too fast for the oil to flow through the piston holes at that speed, the fluid almost becomes solid.

With adjusted oil you can adjust these properties. Thicker oil will give more resistance to being moved and pack will happen at less shaft speed and thinner oil the opposite.
This isnít very good when you need thicker oil (say on a high speed track) and pack is happening a lot and the rebound is too slow for the suspension to stay contact with the ground. This is when enlarging piston holes comes in. You can enlarge these holes and go thicker on the oil without getting the sometimes negative effects of packing. Rebound will be faster too (wheels back in contact with the ground) with larger holes but no so fast the car bounces off into orbit.

Why not just use thinner oil? Because itís not the same. Damping will be reduced, rebound could be too quick and pack, which is sometimes a good thing coming of big jumps will be gone.

Most of the time people use an even amount of two hole sizes in their shock pistons to get a mixture of the effects from small and larger hole sizes.

Its all down to fluid dynamics which is incredibly complicated, too complicated for me to explain clearly, but basically thicker fluid will move more slowly and thinner faster. Bigger holes in the piston will allow more fluid through and that fluid will be moving at a slower speed. Fluid forced through little holes has a critical speed it can travel through them at and when this limit is reached it starts to act like a solid and Its mostly this fluid speed weíre trying to control.

Ole C wrote:

I have tried them with 200 CPS and 250 CPS oil on a rough track. I suspect I should have gone up on the oil, but I havent had time to test that yet.

That is incredibly thin oil. I'm using 45wt (560cps) F 40wt(490) R on quite rough tracks. Car will feel very twitchy and unstable like that and damping might not be controlled enough.


Last edited by YZFAndy on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Casketman



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 495
Location: Braidwood,IL,USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what Andy is talking about but I know I couldnt of explained it HAHA.
This is one of those things that I might never fully understand so your not alone
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He he, I think my background should provide me with enough knowledge to understand the principles. Which makes it even more frustrating when I dont...
I used to work with measuring devices for chemical industry, and among these instruments were flow measuring devices. so we had to calculate laminar and turbulent flow in pipelines among other things. So the theory of "pack" is familiar, and I have even tried to look at the math behind it. But it dont make sense to me. It's been a few years though...

I have used the thin oils to try to get the springs to do most of the job, and rely mostly on pack when hitting a bump. The blue standard springs seem very soft so I was afraid the shocks wouldnt rebound quick enough with heavier oil. I'd rather be on the light soft side on the dampers than the hard side. with too slow dampers "all" traction is gone.

The JQ setup (Front: 4X1,4mm 550-650cps. Rear 2X1,4mm + 2X1,5mm 500-600 cps) worked very well on the 8 as long as you had springs that was stiff enough. JQ said the springs were the key (Gray medium Mugen springs). They are supposedly quite close to the hardest AE RC8 Copper springs, but the car felt even better with the Hyper ST grey springs on that damper setup...

Quote:
That is incredibly thin oil. I'm using 45wt (560cps) F 40wt(490) R on quite rough tracks. Car will feel very twitchy and unstable like that and damping might not be controlled enough.


But is that with the "standard" big bores, or the new larger super big bores?
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YZFAndy



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running the super big bores 20mm externals, with the pistons at 3x.15 3x1.6 and grey springs which are the firm ones. Personal i would only drop down to 35wtF 30wt rear for even the blue springs.

I understand what you saying with the grip, or lack of if going too hard and my thinking is typically the same. What i was finding with thinner setups on this car was when you really needed to push it would just get so out of shape you ended up losing speed. Using a thicker setup really helped keep it stable when pushing hard for me anyway,

Worth a try for a mornings qualifying because it transformed the car for me, it was on the brink of being sold.
Ole C wrote:
The blue standard springs seem very soft so I was afraid the shocks wouldnt rebound quick enough with heavier oil. ?

Thats exactly where a bit of piston drilling would come in handy.
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YZFAndy wrote:
Ole C wrote:
The blue standard springs seem very soft so I was afraid the shocks wouldnt rebound quick enough with heavier oil. ?

Thats exactly where a bit of piston drilling would come in handy.


So you're thinking bigger holes, or just more of them?


You are using the Grey springs because you have lots of traction, right?
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YZFAndy



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say enlarge the holes you have, not add more but only every other hole. you still want to keep some of the smaller for pack of jumps.


For the most part i do have ok levels of grip but hats not why i'm going for such a firm setup, I just find it settles this car down and its much nicer to drive. I also find this car generate a lot of grip going into corners but is biased to the front, hardening this up can even this out and stop it tenancy for front and back to swap directions.
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...

I think I'll try going up on hole size and oil thicknes then. I've just played around in the other end of the scale with oils and springs, but not quite happy with the result.

I'll post my impression as soon as I can find time to test again...
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone had problems with the width of the car with the new (longer) front lower arms?
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HyperGRP



Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you mean tech issues, for big races?
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Casketman



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 495
Location: Braidwood,IL,USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost didnt make it thru tech at the nats and I still use the stock arms. I do have 1mm nuts on and the toe out was what kept him from sliding my car thru and he noticed that.

With someone saying the new arms being 2mm longer. I can see someone running wider wheel nuts having either a very close call or not making thru tech.
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Ole C



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the guys running the 9 had trouble in tech at the last nationals here. Too wide...
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YZFAndy



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why was it too wide? Standard kit or extend hubs?
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Casketman



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 495
Location: Braidwood,IL,USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have the standard car. No new arms. But I do run +1mm wheel nuts but it was close. The toe out is what kept the gate from sliding over the front but he passed me
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